Interested in Programming Career

Discussion in 'The Common Room' started by glance, Jul 15, 2015.

  1. glance

    glance NPC

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    Hi, I was invited to the forum because I had some questions about programming as an area of study in college and as a career.

    I have an associate's degree in graphic design, but I haven't been able to make any headway getting employed in this field with just that. I was considering going back for my bachelor's, but after some consideration I think I may be more interested in website development. I've been using html/css for years and what little of php and javascript I've picked up on my own I really enjoy learning.

    I was researching this field online and it seems to be more in demand and higher paid than art careers like graphic design, and it could really help me a lot with my online pursuits I'm already into. I'm not sure if this field requires I should move to a hotspot location, but I'm not really opposed to moving a long way, as long as it's still in the USA.

    Wondering if the local community college would be a good way to start out. It's very affordable and has a good reputation with the local community. I know some people who go there. Their 2-year course is called Computer Programmer Specialist. This is the page of what it covers: link

    Problem is, I don't know if this covers the programming languages that I really want to learn specifically for the web. The computer programming is something I'd like to learn too, but I definitely want to get SQL/PHP in there.

    I'm also very close to University of Arizona, which offers a BAS in website development, and the credits from the community college transfer, so I can continue with it if I choose to.

    I could also start at the university and maybe get into courses more specific to what I want to learn, but it costs like x10 more per year, so I'd really rather start at the community college if it provides a good foundation. I already got an acceptance letter from them and I just want to do some research and talk to people before I make a final decision and apply for financial aid (deadline for next spring semester is in October).

    Thanks for giving me your time, and also thanks again wolfcry for contacting me and inviting me.
     
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  2. Elf

    Elf Immortal Staff Member

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    Hi! This is an interesting one :)

    First of all thanks for talking to us -- @wolfcry and I are both fans of your work. In fact as I reply, I have one of your original colored sketches of Lavender behind me (just back home from vacation yesterday).

    Just a bit about myself -- I work for a mid-sized managed service provider in Oregon (think datacenters and enterprise-centric IT infrastructure) with a job title of "Senior Network Engineer." Although in reality these days I head up the R&D at the company. I am definitely not looking to "toot my own horn," so to speak, but that might help you when considering the advice or perspective I may have on things. I program in the course of developing new products, and have had programming as a personal hobby for almost 20 years, but do not work on a 100% focused software development team like a full time programmer would. However, I do have experience from working at such places before. I also interview people during our hiring process and play a role in opening new positions for hire, so if you need feedback about job experience or resumes I can try to provide it. Anyways, enough about that!

    This is going to be a little long as I am going to try to answer your questions comprehensively. Please bear with me!

    Colleges and Computer Science
    I will answer the easy stuff first, namely with your questions about the curriculum. Looking over Pima's program, some things stand out. For the "Programming in C" concentration, I see it as a decent general (although shortened) Computer Science style program. Generally these sorts of programs will give you a good foundation in programming practices and more abstract concepts like algorithms which can be applied across a wide variety of computer languages. These higher level concepts will be important for becoming a structured and flexible programmer that is not overly dependent on specific tricks in specific languages. @Bemoliph has just graduated from a similar program in New York, and could potentially chime in here to relate some of his experiences.

    For the "Programming for the Web" concentration, I think it is a little bit outdated and might not be a good fit for you:
    • CIS/CSA 104, BUS 125, CIS 121, and DAR 112 -- just from observing the things that you have already created, I think that these courses might be redundant for you.
    • CIS 266 -- The CGI/Perl model has fallen out of favor in the last 10 years; more on this later.
    • CIS 279 -- Java can be a good language for back end web development, but is used in older more enterprise-centric applications, vs. the newer SaaS type applications it sounds like you want to develop for.
    • CIS 273 -- Some aspects (JS, CSS and DHTML) could be handy, but many are also somewhat outdated such as use of VB Script, Java applets, and ActiveX.
    • CIS 185 -- Python is a good language to learn for back end web development, so this could be a useful course.
    Much of the curriculum seems to fit into the web world as it was from the late 90s and early 2000s when there was more variety in browser implementations. For example, ActiveX and VB Script are old technologies only used Internet Explorer, but in more recent versions of IE even Microsoft has switched to being completely standards based with JavaScript and HTML 5. Another example is the focus on Common Gateway Interface (CGI) which is a much older model of dynamic content where the server generates an entire static webpage and sends it to the browser, with little or no client-side interactivity (e.g. JS/HTML 5). A few elements of this can be relevant today, but you would be hard pressed to find any modern web application using a full CGI model. This is not to say that there isn't a market for such skills -- for example, you could learn these things to maintain older enterprise applications. However, it would be a shrinking field with limited opportunities for career growth, and I think you would find it boring.

    So overall I would say that if you were going to take one of these concentrations, the "Programming in C" one might be a good one to build foundational skills. C is not a language often used for web development and you will probably not learn anything directly work related there, but it would provide you a good structured approach to programming in general. As for Visual Basic, it is generally only used for Windows desktop application development.

    However it is important to know that you would not come out of either program with the skill set you need to start work in the industry, meaning that you would either have to learn on the job (through trial or training), or to do some self directed learning on your own in conjunction with the program.

    Generally speaking, most employers do not expect the entry level programmers out of college to be capable of working independently. They are usually assigned lower level tasks and given a lot of oversight by other team members. Understandably though, this makes them less employable than someone with work experience who wouldn't need that same level of guidance and could take on regular tasks.

    The last concern about going to college is, of course, financial. It will be very difficult or impossible for you to balance school, work, and your personal projects. If you go to college, you will need to give a lot of that up for the duration. If giving up work, that will not only eliminate your source of income for two years, but give you additional costs of tuition; a double hit. As such if you want to go the college route, I would look into night or weekend classes to make it financially viable.

    Self-Learning
    Certain fields (like medicine and the sciences) will require a degree to enter the field. This makes sense; as a doctor you will need formal practice as part of your internship and a very rigorous understanding of the principles. People wanting to get into Chemistry will need access to labs. For IT, it is a bit more of a soft requirement. There are definitely enough good resources out there today for you to pick up all of these skills on your own.

    Personally I did not complete my degree (I went to work for the school!) and instead place a high value on being self taught. I am pretty sure that I have been turned down on positions before for not having the degree, but I have found that the employers who place too much emphasis on having a degree are the sort of stuffy places that end up being miserable to work for anyways. The biggest factors that reasonable employers tend to look for are experience and motivation. Having a long list of successfully completed personal projects and a clear desire to learn new technologies by teaching yourself is a very good way to appeal to a modern company or startup.

    That's not to say the decision is obvious. Some people are not good at self directed learning and will need a classroom environment to succeed. People without a degree will still be a bit disadvantaged. Many clueless HR departments will simply filter out your resume. Many people entrenched in older ways of thinking will insist that going to college gives you a more structured approach to problem solving that you simply couldn't acquire on your own. However on the other hand, it is a continuously expanding field and a lot of the people who are behind the biggest successful startups are definitely not traditional thinkers. Increasingly, degrees and certifications are losing their value.

    Employment
    It's also unfortunate, but... employment in general tends to be somewhat nepotistic. Many of the best jobs I have had, have come from having friends that already worked at the company. It tends to work much better than going on Dice or Monster and scattering your resume around. It's not a shoe-in; all of those places have still had rigorous interview and hiring practices, but companies simply tend to trust recommendations from their own employees more than unknown quantities. Of course, it can also work favorably in the other direction as well. Signing on to companies with friends meant that I already knew what the working environment was like (which is important as some tech companies can be quite abusive), and also meant that I could have some familiar faces and not have to start off with a blank slate.

    Overall, not being a social person and having a limited amount of contacts, even though I have benefited from it, it is something that is hard for me to accept about the industry. Still, it may be something that you can use to your advantage. For example, your status as a webcomic creator and your contacts within various communities may give you an advantage when applying to jobs related to that community (e.g. crowdfunding sites, web comic hosting sites, etc.).

    I would emphasize your experience in graphic design. Development of user interfaces by definition necessitates graphic design experience. An intuitive sense of aesthetics, much less a formal approach to design, is something that the vast majority of programmers lack. Having both programming skills and graphic design skills in one individual can be very beneficial to a smaller programming team.

    As mentioned before, whether or not you decide to go to college, I would continue learning on your own and starting your own projects. To start with, you could try replicating the basic functionality of the tools you use regularly, such as Tumblr, Twitter, or Instant Messaging. Eventually you will want your own unique software projects that you could make available on the Internet. These will give you solid practical experience and will look good on a resume.

    What to Learn?
    I mentioned above that I thought some of the Pima courses were outdated. Of course, that didn't tell you what to learn :)

    I would look into the following technologies. There's so much to talk about here on any individual topic that I will keep it short. Let me know if you have questions.

    I should also say that, one of the parallels I find to be quite applicable is that the process of learning a computer language is a bit like the process of learning a written language like English. Carrying through on that metaphor, learning a computer language (learning English) is a good start, but only the beginning. For example, just knowing how to write the English language does not enable you to write a convincing essay, or an interesting novel. Neither does simply learning a computer language enable you to create good programs. You will also need to learn about program architecture, algorithms, secure coding practices, the ecosystem surrounding your program (such as Operating Systems, network equipment), and simply the aesthetic of what good efficient code looks like. These are things that are much harder to simply find a book on but must be learned from experience or other individuals (school, or just ask here).

    Server side web languages
    There are a few languages commonly in use on the server side today. This means that these languages are used to write programs (similar to CGI) that will take a user request or input and will run on the web server to return a web page. In modern web development, this is usually combined with an HTML 5 / JavaScript "program" on the client side to provide interactive functionality in the user's browser.
    • Python -- A very popular scripting language that is regarded as "easy to learn." It makes a good first language and there are many good online resources for learning it such as Dive Into Python. You will be faced with the choice of learning Python 2.x or 3.x. 3.x is the future of Python as a language, but you will find that most people still use 2.x (and that many popular libraries are not 3.x compatible yet), so you might start there.
    • PHP -- It seems you are familiar with this one already. It is probably the longest lived scripting language that is almost purely used for server side web application development. I have a few gripes with it (namely how it tends to encourage code that is poorly optimized, insecure, and unstructured), but despite that I definitely think you should continue with learning it as it is still quite popular. I would find a book on it. I don't know a good one off the top of my head (the book I learned it from in high school is probably really outdated now), but O'Reilly usually produces solid books. They have a few PHP books: Programming PHP, and Learning PHP, MySQL, JavaScript, CSS & HTML5, both of which look decent at first glance.
    • Ruby -- Sort of an oddball, but still popular in some circles. Commonly used with the Rails framework (i.e. Ruby on Rails). Try their online lesson if you are interested.
    Eventually you might want to pick up things such as Java and Java Server Pages (JSP), or if you get into the Microsoft universe, ASP.Net.

    Web Frameworks
    Any of the languages listed are capable of producing web applications on their own, however to do this practically with only your own code, you will be reinventing many wheels along the way. Web Frameworks are libraries (collections of re-usable code) that simplify many common tasks in web applications, such as authentication, storing session data, creating "CRUD" (create, read, update, delete) interfaces, and can provide higher level functionality for interacting with databases.

    What web frameworks you look at will depend on what language you use (they are almost always language specific). So once you pick a language, you should find a popular web framework in use. For the three listed above, here are some popular ones (there are many more, though):
    Client Side
    Much of the work that used to be done on the server (server side) is now handled in the user's browser (client side). Although there is always the hidden world of the server side, which you should definitely learn, the client side work is what most people think of when you say "web development" today.

    There used to be a wider range of technologies for this such as Java Applets, Active X, Flash, Silverlight, etc. but almost all of these things have fallen out of favor, particularly with the explosion in mobile platforms. The de-facto standard for this today is HTML 5 (with CSS) and JavaScript.

    As you probably know, Hypertext Markup Language (HTML) is the structure for the document a browser reads -- much like a Word document -- that describes both contents and layout. Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) are a modular way of applying stylistic attributes to that content. JavaScript is an in-browser scripting language you can use to create programs that give a document interactivity, or to create entire browser based programs such as e-mail clients or games.

    Much like with the server side languages, browser based programs written in JavaScript can end up doing many of the same things, and writing all of your own code to handle this is needless re-invention. So there are framework libraries like jQuery which can handle many common tasks for you, to simplify your development, make it more efficient, and most importantly with JavaScript handle the differences in browser implementations.

    There are innumerable books on these subjects, but recently I bought this set: Web Design with HTML, CSS, JavaScript and jQuery Set. It is very nicely typeset and much more approachable than your usual programming books. It basically assumes no programming knowledge to start with and can get you started. I know you have started on some of this already, but you might take a look and see if you find it useful.

    Operating Systems and Server Programs
    Server side web applications don't run in isolation -- they generally will have to run in an Operating System such as Linux or Windows, and will be contained and managed by web server software such as Apache, nginx, or IIS.

    To be able to fill a web development role you will need to know at least a bit about all of this. The good news is that with the advent of virtualization and cloud services, you can go to a place like Microsoft Azure (free month of service), Amazon Web Services EC2 (1 year free tier of service), or Linode, and create a cheap or free Windows or Linux virtual machine. You can then use this virtual machine to gain experience with setting up server software to host your experiments with web application development. If you have enough RAM and disk space on your computer, you could also use a desktop hypervisor like VirtualBox to create VMs at home.

    I would learn a little bit about:
    • Usage of cloud platforms (Azure, AWS) and basic provisioning of virtual machines
    • Setting up an Apache or nginx based web server under CentOS or Ubuntu LTS Linux. These are "stable" Linux distributions commonly used for servers.
    • Setting up IIS under Windows Server 2012r2.
    Unfortunately this is an area where I can't offer too much of a prescriptive learning path right away. There are just too many subjects to cover! However I would be happy to offer more guidance as you need.

    Databases
    When writing a web application, you will generally want one or more centralized places to persist (save and retrieve) your data. Commonly, this is done with a database.

    SQL databases generally follow an SQL language standard (although all of them have their own variations) and are ACID compliant. SQL databases store data in "tables" with columns and rows, much like a multi-user Excel spreadsheet. Common SQL databases you might want to be familiar with are:
    • MySQL -- Probably the most common free SQL database for small web applications, but it has scalability issues (aside from the general scalability issues of SQL). Many people are starting to use MySQL compatible alternatives such as MariaDB due to the antics of the company that owns MySQL (Oracle). However, as a programmer, this is not something you will have to worry about as you would deal with it in exactly the same way. Due to its ubiquity, despite its warts, I would probably learn MySQL first.
    • PostgreSQL -- Probably the most mature and feature rich free SQL database engine. This is my SQL database of choice; not as commonly used as MySQL, but increasingly gaining traction.
    • Microsoft SQL server -- Commonly used by Microsoft based development shops, but ungodly expensive (licensing can get up to thousands of dollars per month per instance) and quite honestly just not very good. I would only bother learning T-SQL (the syntax used by SQL Server) if you plan to work in a Microsoft-only development shop. But then you would also be learning things like ASP.Net.
    Increasingly web developers are moving away from using only SQL databases, to various types of "no-SQL" databases. The types and models of these databases can vary wildly (e.g. key-value stores, document databases), but it is worth getting experience with a few of the common ones like Redis, CouchDB, and MongoDB (yuck).


    There's so much more I could write about all of this, but I'll leave it there for now and let you ask questions. So, lastly...
    Where to live
    If I remember correctly, you currently live near the Phoenix area? I think it may be as your career develops (if you decide to go this route), you may find cause to move for a particular job, but I wouldn't worry about it at the moment. Phoenix is, oddly, not a bad place for tech. There are a lot of datacenters and software companies in the area.

    There are also a lot of other "tech meccas" around the US. Some of them may be worth moving to, others I wouldn't willingly get within a hundred miles of. For example, the San Francisco Bay Area has one of the highest densities of programming jobs in the entire country, as well as the greatest concentration of new Software as a Service (SaaS) startups. However the population density, traffic, and insanely high cost of living would make moving there a big mistake.

    I recently (on Sunday) had the displeasure of driving through the area on my way back from Santa Barbara. I got caught in completely jammed up traffic just after noon on a weekend, got fined nearly $30 (bill in the mail) for crossing a toll bridge that only takes cash and FasTrack passes, and saw gas stations nearing $5/gal that were actually doing good business. I have some acquaintances that live down there that just paid over $2 million for a shabby mid-sized house that, around here, wouldn't go for much more than $150k -- and this is all actually considered normal. Things are so bad down there that people will actually rent tents for $960 a month. So while there are jobs there that might make you a lot of money, living there will suck it all away again.

    Aside from the Bay Area though, there are reasonably affordable places with lots of tech jobs. Here are some that I know about:
    • Provo, UT -- Just south of Salt Lake City. Has an unusually high concentration of tech jobs for no particular reason I can discern, and it's not too expensive either. Lots of mormons.
    • Atlanta, GA -- Don't know too much about this one, but @Cryect works there and could offer advice.
    • Portland, OR -- This is the metro area where I work, although we actually live some distance away in rural unincorporated Clark County, WA. Portland is full of homeless people and hipsters, but both are fairly harmless.
    • Phoenix, AZ -- Near where you are? Nice state, reasonable cost of living, although Phoenix is too unsustainable and too hot for me personally. I much prefer the Flagstaff area; but, no tech jobs there.
    So, anyways I'm sure that doesn't cover it completely, but hopefully it at least starts to answer your questions!
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2015
  3. Bemoliph

    Bemoliph High Priest Staff Member

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    A small caution: the thing you linked is for a "certificate" based on one of three "concentrations" of classes, not a "real" AS that they list separately here. The classes are very similar if you do all three concentrations (though notably the AS's electives include virtualization (219) and Windows server (221) and Linux server (225) classes!), but choose carefully if the official distinction matters to you or your future employer.

    The main thing is you need to care and do your own thing regardless of school or not, and regardless of community college versus state university. I have been to both and saw many hopeless and wizard students and teachers, and the key difference between each is the good ones personally cared outside the homework and tests. They weren't showing up thinking Just Going To Class was good enough, and neither should you if you want to be a baller.
     
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  4. wolfcry

    wolfcry High Priestess Staff Member

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    @glance You're welcome. I'm glad I didn't wait to contact you since you've already got a letter of acceptance in hand. Hope you find all this interesting and helpful.
     
  5. Elf

    Elf Immortal Staff Member

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    Good point. It will depend on the HR department and how you fudge.. er... word it on your resume, but some places may insist on an actual AS degree, or may even insist on a full Bachelors' degree. (Or if it's Google, you may need a full PhD! haha.) So if you are looking to satisfy a degree requirement with employers (rather than just demonstrating formal education), then you may need to spend some more time and money, and go through more general education requirements as well.
     
  6. glance

    glance NPC

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    Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate everything.

    I noticed when I applied that the AS was listed under a different name, and that's what I applied for, so it should be ok if I do decide to go. I am kind of worried that so many of the classes seem outdated, but that's one of the reasons I was skeptical about community college to begin with. Even if I just take the classes that would be required in the bachelor's program anyway, it would save me hundreds of dollars, because between the two schools it's like $75 per credit hour VS $500 per credit hour. I'm just worried about having the necessary hours to qualify for financial aide. Which is pretty much the only way I'd be able to afford to do it, since it would require me to quit one of the two jobs that I currently work at (I don't actually have any days off, weekends or otherwise). Fortunately though, my secondary job is from home (I illustrate for a subscription site) so I'd be able to do that any time or day between classes.

    I have considered going through just self-taught methods, and before I started my second job last year, I was really making some headway just using code academy to learn SQL, PHP, etc. But I've been stuck in kind of a rut for the past year where I'm not really making enough money to dig myself out of working 100% of the time. It isn't leaving any room for me to learn additional skills. I thought if I went back to school then I could use the financial aide to give myself some breathing room at least until I graduate (since it suspends my existing student debts), and also the added benefit of having an actual degree for employers who look for that. The down side of that being as already pointed out, if I fail at the course or don't get employed after I graduate, I could be in the same position but double worse.

    I mean I guess I could wait a few more years until I grind through my current financial problems at a rate of $9 an hour before I make any life-changing decisions, but it isn't very appealing. I think I'll get where I want to be faster if I figure out a way to start now.

    I'm currently living in Tucson, AZ so I'm not in Phoenix but pretty close to it.

    Thanks for the list of things, I really appreciate all the time and effort you put into making that for me.
     
  7. Elf

    Elf Immortal Staff Member

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    I admit that is a difficult situation; without time to focus on things outside of work (and school, for that matter), it will be difficult to be successful. I have seen a wide variety of Computer Science programs ranging from community colleges to top name universities (e.g. MIT). In some regards I would say that what you learn with an AS degree or from just taking community college programs can be more practically oriented than what you get from a full on Bachelors' CS degree. That is, it will be closer to a "trade school" than just learning theory.

    I do agree that using school to defer repayment of your existing student loans and (partially?) cover living costs for the duration could be an element of a workable financial strategy. But as you say, it is a bit of a gamble, the outcome of which would be dependent on you finding a good job before your student loan payments resumed. It sounds like it would also be cutting things pretty close, so I would urge a very careful analysis of income and expenses to see if it is indeed viable.

    I still think it may be difficult to find employment as a newly graduated student. I don't have any hard data to back that up, but just my feeling of the industry at the moment. Coincidentally, @Bemoliph is in the same situation, which is something I am helping him with over these next few months. I am getting him moved out to the Portland area, and we will be working on his resume and trying to get him an entry level programming job. However in doing so, we are actually placing much more emphasis on the personal coding projects he has completed (as a demonstration of practical experience) than on his education and degree. I guess I'm just worried that if you're already cutting it close enough that you might just have enough time for school, you may not be able to take the time to work on your development outside of school to be able to differentiate yourself to employers. As such, the "gamble" may then have a lower chance of paying off for you.

    Since @Bemoliph and I are currently going through this exercise (in about late August to September), we may be able to share some more observations with you in the near future.

    You might have a few things to consider:
    • Obtaining work using your Graphic Design credentials -- I know you said that there has been a lot of trouble with this, which I can believe. It is hard to work as an artist. However if you could somehow get a higher paying design job that could meet your expenses with an 8-5 schedule, you would be in a better position to work on getting into software development. I'm guessing based on what you've said that you have already tried to pursue this to every extent possible, but just wanted to put it out there.
    • Support from friends or family -- Sometimes people just get stuck in situations that it can be nearly impossible to leverage themselves out of without outside help. For example in the college route, you would be relying on the outside help of student loans and financial aid. If you have friends or family that could help to support you during a career transition, it might be something to think about. @Bemoliph is sort of in this situation as well, which is why I am helping him get started.
    • Entrepreneurial efforts -- If you have a talent for it (and unfortunately, the time for it), this can be a good option for some people. I know you've had some trouble with things in the past (e.g. kickstarter efforts) but there may be creative ways for you to monetize your art, or potentially your future programming efforts. It would require a good deal of business acumen (which can be acquired), but it could also be the path to making a living doing what you love.
    • Reducing expenses -- I expect $9/hr is really difficult to live on and as such you've probably already considered a lot of ways to cut your expenses. I'm not sure to what extent you've examined your cash flow but if you haven't run some analysis on it, you may find things that will surprise you, and there may be additional things to cut (or reapproach) that you haven't thought about.
    I can certainly talk more about financial things, perhaps over Skype or private messages if it is something you are uncomfortable discussing here.

    With regards to your success or failure in a Computer Science program, I think that if you have the time to properly attend to it, you will do just fine. With your experiences in self teaching and your existing products that I have seen, I think you have the aptitude for it. It sounds like your biggest obstacle will likely just be the ability to dedicate time to it while still making ends meet.
     
  8. glance

    glance NPC

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    From what you've said here, I think that starting with the two year program would definitely be the way to go. I will end up getting more practical basics, and spending a lot less money.

    So for now my game plan is take the concentration of Programming in C like you mentioned in order to get a solid foundation, and in the meantime I'll focus as much as I can on teaching myself in some of the areas that I really want to implement in my own personal projects, and start working on those from home. Since the tuition is really affordable, even if I don't find employment immediately, I won't be any worse off than I am right now. The big financial risk is if I do eventually go into the 4-year BAS program.

    So hopefully by the time I complete the program I'll have both the AS and also a thing or two I've done for a resume. School and self-teaching aren't mutually exclusive to each other, I just have to find time and motivation to focus on both. I am already putting in way too many hours doing something I really hate, so I don't see how it could be worse. I can maybe get a job from the AS, or continue with the BAS.

    Of course, all contingent on if I get the financial aide and how much it is if I do. If I end up having to pay a lot out of pocket, then I really won't be able to afford to go anyway.
     
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  9. Elf

    Elf Immortal Staff Member

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    Ah okay, I am glad you have decided on your path. Assuming all the financials work out, it sounds reasonable, and I agree that having both formal education and personal projects is a good combination.

    I am sure you will have all kinds of questions when you get further into programming. Feel free to ask. Otherwise, good luck!
     
  10. glance

    glance NPC

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    Yeah, thanks! I am exited to get started, and I'll probably post more here when I have more time to dig in.
     
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